14 Responses to Mystic Theory 101: Magic in DFRPG, Part One

1. Rel Fexive says:

   June 14, 2010 at 7:46 am

   Excellent.

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5. Tyson says:

   September 18, 2013 at 2:10 pm

   I’m wondering about continued concentration when using Evocation. On page 276 of Your Story in the Veils section it states Veils are Spirit Evocations that typically require ongoing concentration to remain in place. My question is: what are the rules for “Continued Concentration” -What am I missing? The book series has multiple instances where veils hide things from view for what seems like long periods of time, which seems to directly conflict with the “Quick and Dirty” guideline of Evocation. Also, what constitutes an attempt to pierce the veil? Could the “Quick Veil” example on page 295 work for veiling a person enough to walk down a semi-busy street without being seen by the average mundane mortal? How long would the Quick Veil last in this case? How would a Wizard go about not being seen via a Veil if they wanted to follow a target through a moderately busy street with average foot traffic? I guess I just need a more specific explanation using a larger example.
6. buy Pregabalin Lyrica uk v says:

   September 18, 2013 at 2:39 pm

   By default, evocations last for the exchange you cast them, and no longer. Now, that’s great for attacks, but for things like veils (and, by extension, shields), that kinda sucks. Thus, one of the ways you can expend extra shifts of power is to extend the duration of the evocation. For every shift of power you spend on duration, you get one extra exchange of function from your veil or your shield. Of course, calling up more power makes the spell harder to control.

   So, looking at Quick Veil as written, it lasts for a single exchange, as it says. But, if you cast it with a power of 5 instead of 3, you can make it last for two extra exchanges.

   The idea of ongoing concentration is reflected by the fact that, every few exchanges, the caster will have to re-cast an evoked veil. That’s going to be a drain on Mental Stress. If you want that sort of thing to be a little easier (and this would just be a house rule), you can just let the caster pay the extra Mental Stress to continue the veil unchanged when it’s about to expire, rather than making him or her reroll the casting of the evocation. The cost would be the same as the initial cost of the casting, but there’s no chance of failure, etc.

   Now, as to Quick Veil lasting long enough for a person to walk down a semi-busy street without being seen by the average mundane mortal: I would rule that no, it wouldn’t. Even if we’re generous and set the length of the street at three zones, the caster would have to run down it in order to travel the length before the spell expired.

   Evocation in general is not good for such refined purposes. Using evocation to veil you for a few crucial seconds in order to duck past a guardpost or run to cover in a firefight is one thing; walking around invisible is another. Well, you COULD do it, but I’d say that your brains would be leaking out your ears in short order. For the more long-term, refined use of veils, you want Thaumaturgy.
7. Tyson says:

   September 19, 2013 at 1:13 am

   Wow. Thanks for the lightning fast response. Your reply helped me dig back through the rule book and try to draw some links between what happens in the book series and what is possible within the rules of this RPG system.

   I have some additional questions about how the book series translates to the game. In the books Molly, an apprentice routinely casts quick veils without setting up a circle or using symbols and taking no more than a second or two to cast the spell (meaning Evocation and not Thaumaturgy). The sidebar on page 255 infers that a Veil can last until something pierces it or until the end of the scene for the base shift cost of the spell. In the books Molly veils from people all the time and rarely shows signs of stress, or consequence from casting a Veil that allows her to stand in a room with others who are investigating the area.

   This brings up the question of: what pierces a veil?

   Here’s my base thoughts and I’d like your feedback: My assumption is that the veil, working as a block vs. perception is in place until somebody actively interacts with it (or until the end of the scene). Now when somebody is in a situation to interact with a veil means that they get a chance to perceive it (creating a “perception exchange”). If the opposition perceives the veil they know somebody or something is under a veil in that location, but don’t technically know who or what is under the veil. It’s at this point (after the perception exchange) that the caster of veil will need to either drop the veil or expend more energy (pay more mental stress) to keep the veil in place. What I think might cause the veil to be pierced is an instance where an action or consequence takes place that allows the opposition’s perception to completely bypass the perception block thus canceling it out just like any attack that bypasses a standard block cancels it out as well.

   The verbiage in the sidebar on p. 264 refers to persistence with Evocation and states that a player needs to devote a “little bit” of concentration every moment a magical construct stays active; implying that an evocation can be continued with a small amount—but consistent—level of continued concentration.

   What do you think about an interpretation of the rules where all Evocation Blocks can are cast as either “Definite” or “Indefinite” in duration In order to make all blocks more consistent?

   Definite blocks would be evoked by building a magical construct as you describe above, having a set expenditure of energy for a finite duration of time and doesn’t require continued concentration. An indefinite block would be a persistent evocation with an initial investment of energy that also requires a modicum of continued concentration to keep it in place until interacted with in an exchange, or until the end of the scene. Example: a Wizard could cast a Spirit-based Force Shield (Block Evocation) in the opening exchange of a conflict and it would stay in place until attacked (interacted with). At that point the shield would either block the attack or be canceled if the attack meet the requirements for bypassing the block by being stronger than the base strength of the block (paragraph 2 p.252). If the block wasn’t used in the exchange immediately after the initiating of the block then the Wizard would then need to feed a little more energy and concentration into the Shield to keep it in place, or let it fall unused. If the block was used then the caster has to channel more energy into the spell to keep it going and I’m considering taking your suggestion of having the caster pay the extra Mental Stress to continue the block unchanged rather than requesting they recast the block. I’m thinking that a concentration check of sort to maintain focus would be in order, and that the concentration check to continuously hold the block in mind should get more difficult the longer the spell is held in place.

   I think this sort of idea would allow a quick veil to be cast and maintained so that a veiled individual will be able to do more things that are described in the book series.
8. buy Pregabalin Lyrica uk v says:

   September 19, 2013 at 9:22 am

   I’m a little pressed for time this morning, so I’m gonna address your questions kind of quickly.

   First off, mine is not the definitive answer. The rules will support multiple interpretations and applications, so I’m just giving you MY take on things. YMMV, etc.

   Okay. Molly. As written in OW, she’s got a Hide rote spell that lets her cast a pretty good veil with all the benefits of a rote spell. If I were writing her up, I might also have added a stunt that gives her a bonus for veils. As for them all being evocation, well, as written, they have to be. But most of her coolest veils in the books happen AFTER the time period covered by the DFRPG game, so we can assume she’s picked up thaumaturgy. With a high enough Lore, you can cast rituals with almost no preparation, almost as fast as evocation. So, she might be doing something like that in later books.

   Now. Piercing a veil. That happens when a Perception check overcomes the strength of a veil. Got a veil of Good +3? Perception check of Great +4 pierces it.

   Definite and Indefinite. I would be very leery of allowing such an interpretation in my game. It gives casters a real boost to the cool stuff they can do, and they already threaten to overwhelm other character types with their wide range of cool things. More to the point, it really broadens the application of evocation by stealing some of thaumaturgy’s schtick, so straight-up evokers get cooler and ritualists get less so.

   If you go with this, I’d tack on a hefty price tag for Indefinite blocks. Like an extra 3 shifts of power, or using up the Minor consequence slot (Distracted) for as long as it’s in place. Something so that it doesn’t become SOP for evokers to walk around with Armor:5.

   Concentration checks – meh. Personally, I think they slow the game down, and setting the difficulty becomes fiddly, and success doesn’t really mean anything INTERESTING happens. If you go that route, I’d just say that, as long as the caster is feeding power in to maintain the block, everything else he or she does that exchange is a supplementary action that happens at -1. Or the caster pays another hit of Mental Stress. Probably not both; if you’re allowing this, then you want players to do it, and there’s no point in punishing them too hard when they do. A little bit is good, though.

   You’re right in that this would certainly allow Quick Veil to do more of the things that are described in the books, but you need to ask if what’s going on in the books is being done by Quick Veil, or by something more powerful. Quick Veil can be boosted by casting it in a more powerful form, and spending shifts of power to increase duration, veil more people, strengthen the veil, make the veil transparent from the inside, stuff like that. But it takes more than the three shifts of power that are listed as the default.

   That said, y’know, go ahead and do what you want in your game – if you’re the GM. If not, what the GM says, goes, right? Personally, after running a lengthy DFRPG campaign with various types of casters and non-casters, the LAST thing I think the game needs is more flexibility and power for the casters. 😉

   But, as I say, YMMV.
9. Tyson says:

   September 19, 2013 at 10:09 am

   Here’s some more instances from the books where somebody holds an evocation shield or block of some type ready and in place for an extended timeframe and it doesn’t exhaust them until their block comes into contact with an opposing energy/attack at which point they either funnel more energy into the block or let the block expire.

   About 30% of the time Harry uses his Sheild Bracelet he powers it up and holds it ready to intercept incoming attacks, usually about once or twice per book.

   Harry vs. The Mind Fog in Summer Knight (he set up a Thaumaturgic Charm to protect Murphy, but instead actively mentally shielded himself during the conflict for several minutes in a running battle that ranged all over the store)

   Almost every instance of a veil in the books is cast in seconds and stays in place for an extended duration, but I’ll put several instances that stand out to me in addition to other blocks that operate on a “held-ready” basis.

   Grave Peril: Senior Council Members: Liberty and Injun Joe are hid in a veil for the duration of Harry’s talk with McCoy.
   Dead Beat: The Wardens, and the Black Council seem to veil and unveil at will.
   White Night: Molly veils herself and follows Harry and Murphy up a staircase, and into a crime scene and stays in the room while Harry conducts an 15-30 minute investigation at the crime scene.
   White Night: Elaine veils herself in a room within a few seconds to avoid being noticed by Harry when he visits the Ordo Lebes.
   White Night: Elaine powers up a defensive block while on the move that increases her reaction and ability to dodge and holds it at the ready prior to engaging in a conflict
   White Night: Molly veils herself, mouse, and the entire blue beetle without setting up a circle, using symbols, or any of the other hallmarks of Thaumaturgy, and hides in car from sight for about an hour and doesn’t show signs of exhaustion or stress except when Harry is interacting with the veil.
   Turn Coat: Molly veils herself and slowly walks around a fairly large zone to make a circle trap around Binder and his minions in the self storage lot.
   Changes: Take your pick of the Magical Blocks in the battle at Chichen Itza, there’s loads of them.
   Ghost Story: Molly veils herself and sneaks by guards out on the street, and then crosses the threshold at Murphy’s house and sits in a room while others are talking about her for several minutes before being noticed.
   Cold Days: Molly veils an entire boat while it sails across a lake.

   In everyone of the above instances the method of casting appears to be evocation primarily because the blocks were mobile, ended their duration when the caster stopped concentrating on the spell effect, and lacked the symbolic arcane accouterments and casting time to be Thaumaturgy. Furthermore, the energy demands only seem to be causing mental stress when the block is being interacted with. I think there is a strong track record for saying that evocation blocks work differently than evocation attacks as it clearly doesn’t take the same sort of energy to maintain a block as it does to produce an evocation attack effect.

   I think the last two instance of Molly’s veils are the best examples of blocks using less energy than standard evocation attacks. Here’s some examples: Harry couldn’t cast fire spells for an entire boat trip across a lake, he’d pass out and moving that much energy would surely hex the boat’s motor; whereas Molly’s veil is cast, but must not draw that much active energy for the trip otherwise she’d pass out as she is less powerful than Harry and the boat’s motor would be hexed by the ambient magical energies. Also, Molly holds a veil while crossing a threshold that hides her from vision, scent and hearing (the werewolves don’t find her), if the veil of that level required a constant energy and had to also compensate for losing power while crossing the threshold Molly wouldn’t be able to keep the spell up for more than a few seconds.

   The more I compare the books and the RPG, the more I’m convinced that blocks must work differently.
10. Tyson says:

    September 19, 2013 at 10:16 am

    Sorry. was writing my reply while your’s was posted, so the above post didn’t count your reply.

    I think your solution of: using up the Minor consequence slot (Distracted) for as long as it’s in place. is an excellent way to address the issue.

    I also think that adding an extra 1-3 shifts to set up a concentration-based block, would be appropriate.

    Thanks for your feedback. The game balance issue is one I was overlooking, and will pay close attention to.
11. Tyson says:

    September 19, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Oh and to be clear about my “Definite and Indefinite” evocations: if I allow that interpretation, it will only apply to Blocks. All other evocations in the RPG work as they do in the book series.
12. Tyson says:

    September 19, 2013 at 10:25 am

    I must have a “Distracted” consequence right now too, as I forgot to thank you… so:

    Thanks a ton for your feedback and fast responses! It’s great to have another GM to bounce questions off of. Thanks again!

    If you’d like, once I have my Blocks system in place, tested and documented, I’ll share it with you.
13. buy Pregabalin Lyrica uk v says:

    September 19, 2013 at 11:17 am

    Glad you found my babbling useful! And I’d love to see what you come up with as far as a hack of evocation blocks.
14. JJN says:

    September 29, 2015 at 8:23 pm

    Reading Tyson’s questions, I started to wonder if it was possible to model Harry’s initial block as a bit of Thaumaturgy. In the books, he often powers up his shield for a few moments as he approaches a potential danger. He has the basic preparation (shield bracelet, usually), the power up seems close in story terms to the casting process for Thaumaturgy, and it would only take a couple exchanges to get to a Fair-Great block strength.